Curse

Dzjudz · Mar 23, 2011, 12:38 AM // 00:38

I'm not suggesting they now take away your abilities to make any team you want though.

Karate Jesus · Mar 23, 2011, 01:13 AM // 01:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by chessyang

No problem. I just needed to know. please add me to your block list under the UserCP. I'm still on the wiki =]

Oh, sweet lord. I'm not blocking anyone. Just because I suggest that you might have sounded a little pompous is no reason to throw a 13-year-old-girl pity party.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Bulldozer

Yes, there are quasi-literate 12 year olds... there are also quasi-literate 30+ people on these forums, but there are also those with Master's degrees (like you) or even higher (like me

).

There's not enough money in the world to convince me to go back to school. I needed a Master's to do what I wanted and that's all I got.

Saint Scarlet · Mar 23, 2011, 01:24 AM // 01:24

It would be nice to hear from someone at Anet now as to whether they did foresee the problems that Mercs seem to have created.

Did they realise it would unbalance the types of heros teams you could use? And if they did why did they allow the price of it to be so high, as to create the situation where some people just cannot afford to keep up.

To this day i think Anet have done all they can to keep players happy in the best ways they can, but sometimes they come up with nice ideas that just seem to be poorly thought out.

ogre_jd · Mar 23, 2011, 01:27 AM // 01:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasai

I also believe that cosmetics was the intended purpose of the merc pack, and Anet simply did not foresee people recycling a pvp slot to create these silly gimmick groups people are having a fit over.. or, as many of us do, did not think creation of these gimmicky groups created any advantage at all.

That's something they should definitely try to fix.

Pity it's too late to do a good fix for the concept and make the Mercenary Heroes exact clones (skills, weapons, runes, and insignias, as well as looks) that can't be changed on other characters, with everything about them only ever changing when the actual character does (ie, the Merc only updates on that registered character's logout).

Daesu · Mar 23, 2011, 02:52 AM // 02:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saint Scarlet

It would be nice to hear from someone at Anet now as to whether they did foresee the problems that Mercs seem to have created.

I don't see a problem. Only people who are dissatisfied with the pricing.

ANet is smart enough not to get into this heated debate at this time.

novawhiz · Mar 23, 2011, 03:31 AM // 03:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Why can I have this hamburger and you can't?

Because I paid for it. You want one, you will have to pay for it.

Actually this is quite like "Why is that guy fries and coke bigger than mine? I bought the same menu!" "He payed to have extra fries and more coke.".

....seriously??? Are you an epic troll or is this really what this discussion has devolved into?? It seems like no one here understands what this argument is about at all..

This is the most inappropriate analogy i have ever heard in my life. Anet released the game with the understanding that is was FTP (after retail cost for actual game/expansion).

So to apply this to your epic hamburger analogy: Anet sold hamburgers, they were all the same, and all had a one time only cost. It was understand by the customers that after they bought this hamburger, they would not be expected to buy more ketchup and lettuce and mustard for other extra fees. There was no such as thing as bigger or jucier or more condiment-full hamburgers. We all spent the same money on the hamburgers, and we all got the same hamburgers. Then Anet starting offering hamburger containers to help people hold and eat their hamburgers. These containers cost a small extra fee but did nothing to alter or enhance the hamburger, they simply added convenience to those who chose to buy them. Then later, anet started selling napkins. You didn't need the napkins to eat the hamburger, and other people who bought napkins surely did not have any advantage or any change at all in the quality or content of their hamburger. Then, suddenly, Anet realized they had sold all these hamburgers, and then a few chicken sandwhich expansions, and a plate of eotn egg rolls. Now people were enjoying all these delicious meals they had, but anet wasn't making any more money. So, Anet decided they would add some customizability to their hamburgers for a fee. People could dye their buns, mustard, ketchup, patties or anything different colors. They could also buy little flags to stick inside of their hamburgers. All of these payable additions were nice and nifty but did not change the actual content or quality of the hamburgers. They were all still the same size, with the same condiments, with the same ingredients, with the same flavor and taste. Now, suddenly, Anet decided they were going to be really nice and allow people to customize their hamburgers with 7 special toppings. For everyone, you could choose 7 servings of toppings from the servings of toppings available. There were 3 servings of tomatoes, 3 servings of fries, 2 servings of horse radish, 2 servings of coleslaw, etc ,etc. Great, now you can mix and match and make your hamburger with 7 servings from those provided. But then all of sudden, Anet opened an exclusive VIP buffet, where only those you payed an extra fee could go. This buffet allowed them access to 7 servings of tomatoes, 7 servings of fries, 7 servings of horse radish, 7 servings of coleslaw, etc ,etc. Now, suddenly, all hamburgers were not equal or possible to made equal without paying. The guy who didn't pay was left with limited options for toppings, while the guy who forked out some green got to make any combination he wanted. Now, things were not right. Some people wanted more horse radish because they loved horse radish, but were still limited to 2 servings. Other wanted 4 servings of coleslaw and 3 servings of fires. This was not possible without paying extra fees. Now, people found that unless they payed they could not potentially have the same kinds of hamburgers(in content/quality/taste/flavor) as the people who payed more. But wait a second- when we bought these hamburgers, anet said we wouldn't have to pay anything extra to have a better hamburger. We were ok with rinky dinky food coloring and flags sticking outta people's hamburgers who payed, but now that paying extra money could allow you to have more options and abilities to make new/other/better hamburgers, something was wrong. People who payed anet would flout around with their 7 horse radish stacked and their 7 layer fries hamburgers while the rest of the players who didn't pay had to settle with their simple burgers with 3 stacks of fries or 3 stacks of horse radish. It was just not fair that certain players were able to experience all the different delicious tastes and flavors of an incredible number of hamburger combination, while the rest were left with the same plain old limited combinations. The people who payed would make wonderful combinations of burgers and take pictures of them and post them on the internet. All the other scrubs would look in wonder at all the juicy delicious tastes they would never experience. And thus, here we are. Some people are arguing that the payed-buffet combinations don't necessarily taste better than the next normal burger. However, they are completely missing the point. The point is that the payed-buffet players have access to different flavors and tastes that the rest of the people don't. Whether some people arbitrarily think these flavors taste better than other normal-buffet burgers is irrelevant. The advantage is in the unlimited possibility of flavors that the people who payed get to experience, while the people who didn't pay are limited in the flavors they will ever taste.

chessyang · Mar 23, 2011, 03:46 AM // 03:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

... reason to throw a 13-year-old-girl pity party.

I'm confused now. I didn't ask for a party.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost Dog

you don't seriously think these one companies need DLC money do you?.

Yes I do. It seems from day one of GW or as I remember DLC was everywhere else to some degree and Anet had the idea of a new campaign ever year-ish as there way of not following that model. Then somthing hapened and where seeing all this DLC spawn up. Just my view of it. I'm proably wrong.

Any who I'll stick to my guns and support them till I find some other game I give my money to. I like his game and community. Till then they have me hooked. And wiat to buy what else the toss my way because at the end of day it just a game. Real lives aren't being saved or people dieing. Just people enjoiying a game someone created.

So entertain me Anet I have money to spent.

Wow novawhiz! Do not know what to say..... Just refreshed and BAM! Need a TL DL. I'm reading it over and over to be sure.

Essence Snow · Mar 23, 2011, 04:04 AM // 04:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by novawhiz

Epic Burger Analogy...

I had lots of fun reading this one....lol

Anyhow I agree its bout the premise that GW was sold under the pretense that there would be no advantages...yet they have faulted on that pretense.

I eagerly await someone to retort that analogy...lol

Saint Scarlet · Mar 23, 2011, 04:15 AM // 04:15

Aye 'tis an epic read.

And for an analogy it's the best i seen, kudos to you Novawhiz.

Karate Jesus · Mar 23, 2011, 05:11 AM // 05:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasai

Welcome to reality. If you are going to strain an analogy.. don't pick one that is the common business model in most of the world. You get what you pay for.

Honestly, if you carry any one of the analogies in this thread to its logical end, it'll result in something insanely ridiculous.

Nova showed that. It was fckin' hilarious, but still silly.

Really, no one here should be speaking of "logic".

X Dr Pepper X · Mar 23, 2011, 05:39 AM // 05:39

Somebody get the Hamburglar up in this bitch!

In all seriousness...

When we first played GW, we were promised a game different than other MMOs in playstyle and philosophy.

One of the areas that GW was different from other MMOs were that players would not have to excessively grind for advantages or pay real money for advantages. The creators built their philosophy with the intention that players would quickly be able to reach the metagame and play on a very standardized level playing field.

The appeal was that GW would be accessible without such exclusive and arbitrary features like grinding for armor/stats/gear/weapons or paying for in game advantages just make the game worthwhile to play.

Expansions were released and they became normative features of Guild Wars. Everybody quickly knew that the metagame would include the latest expansion campaign. People accepted the fact that expansions offered new features that definitely gave advantages over others who did not have those campaigns, BUT were ok because they are such a normalized, non deviant form of business according to the original philosophy of the founders.

With an expectation that EotN would be the last standard, popular feature, people remained and played GW. Now, people feel betrayed because the service ANet provides offers is different from what we were once promised. Instead of harmless features like weapon skins or costumes, people are now buying superiority in the form of in game advantages.

Instead of keeping the metagame at EotN, players will now have to buy all campaigns PLUS Merc heroes or they are not at the standardized apex of GW. EotN should have been kept as the metagame.

Where does it end?

Do people not see how the philosophy of GW has changed since many of the original staff have parted?

Quru · Mar 23, 2011, 06:02 AM // 06:02

You say "they would not be expected to buy more ketchup and lettuce and mustard for other extra fees". Nobody is "expected" or "forced" to buy anything, mercenary heroes isn't anywhere near the same level as RTM DLC in all the other f2p MMO:s. And for the hamburger analogy: the "7 coleslaw" hamburgers have existed from the very beginning. First you needed 7 friends who also loved coleslaw and had it with them and then you had fun together and ate your coleslaw-topped hamburgers. Then they added toppings, and you could just eat your hamburger with guy who also had picked "3 coleslaw". Then the VIP buffet comes and you would really like to go there to try, but you can't because you have to pay to get there. Then you come to hamburger forum to whine that you want hampurger with coleslaw only, because coleslaw only-hamburgers give you more variety in taste than good, balanced tasting hamburger with all the toppings (no onion please, it's like assassin heros).

Mercenary heroes can't do anything new besides looking your existing heroes. I've heard rumours that some M in acronym MMO stand for multiplayer, but I assume it's not the way, because everybody is supposed to buy mercenaries and solo their way through everything with 7 mesmer heroes. I say this again: this is like arguing with pirates. Some of them have good arguments about information being free and so on, but most of them just want everything free and yell "RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing ANET IS RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOING GREED SHIT WHY AM I SUPPOSED TO PAY FOR CONTENT RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO"

X Dr Pepper X · Mar 23, 2011, 06:08 AM // 06:08

To refute your shitty argument entirely, I'll gladly pay for extra content in GW1 as long as it does not infringe upon the philosophy of buying in game advantages.

This isn't about requesting free content or being stingy and cheap. It's about giving an exclusive group more powerful options solely because they paid money.

If they made WIK, Hearts of the North, and Cantha: Winds of Change into mini campaigns that offered no advantages in player ability or income source, I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

You are wrong. Good day.

Gli · Mar 23, 2011, 07:26 AM // 07:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Dr Pepper X

If they made WIK, Hearts of the North, and Cantha: Winds of Change into mini campaigns that offered no advantages in player ability or income source, I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

And what if they'd add even more missions and quests, along with advantages in player ability and income?

Like, say, a new campaign such as Nightfall?

Where does this insane notion that add-ons shouldn't offer advantages come from? Add-ons priced like the mercenaries better damn well should offer some advantages for the money they're charging. They just shouldn't be game breaking advantages, which the mercs aren't.

Improvavel · Mar 23, 2011, 09:37 AM // 09:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by novawhiz

....seriously??? Are you an epic troll or is this really what this discussion has devolved into?? It seems like no one here understands what this argument is about at all..

This is the most inappropriate analogy i have ever heard in my life. Anet released the game with the understanding that is was FTP (after retail cost for actual game/expansion).

No, they expected you to buy a $50 expansion every 6 months to stay competitive.

And, what you bought still is free to play - you don't need to buy merc heroes to play.

But if you do buy them, your game is better.

Analogies are limited in scope - in this case I was explaining to you why you can't have merc heroes - because you didn't buy them, which seems to be a concept you weren't understanding.

The rest of your post is just saying that if a burger chain start offering extra bacon or extra sauce or whatever for their burgers they need to retroactively put it on all the burgers you ate and are going to eat.

In fact your hamburger chain is still selling the same hamburger - actually the default hamburger is even better.

TheGizzy · Mar 23, 2011, 10:02 AM // 10:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by novawhiz

*insert boffo burger book here*

Your analogy was highly entertaining, without a doubt. Unfortunately, it's also lacking a key component - mainly, that in the GW burger buffet, the chefs not only allow, but encourage the diners to swap ingredients among themselves... and even provide a central place for said swapping to take place.

Diner A who has extra tomatoes hooks up with Diner B who has extra cheese and lettuce and they in turn hook up with Diner C who has all kinds of horseradish - and between them, A gets his horseradish, B gets tomatoes, C gets cheese & lettuce, and they decide to pool their fries & onion rings as well.

This debate, like the one that preceded it and was closed, comes down to convenience. Some diners are paying for the convenience of selecting their ingredient preferences directly from the chefs, and others don't want to pay for that convenience and are QQ'ing that they aren't given it for free - even though the chefs have provided a way for them to still get their chosen ingredients free.

You want the convenience of not having to party up with someone in order to have the flexibility to run your custom builds? Pay for it. You DO have a method to explore those custom builds, you just don't like the inconvenience of it. Me, I didn't like the inconvenience of having to chase down skills in areas of the campaigns I hadn't yet gotten to... so I bought skill packs. The convenience was worth it to me... others don't mind the slower pace of capping skills slowly.

Personally, I won't be buying the merc packs. It's not in my budget, and it holds zero interest for me. I like supporting ANet with my purchases, when they're something I can see myself having a use for... this latest addition isn't something I see myself having a use for, and I see nothing about it that is advantageous to me to make it worth spending the money on.

Dafad Dhu · Mar 23, 2011, 10:07 AM // 10:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Dr Pepper X

Your drops definitely do affect other player's drops. If people have an easier access to Armbraces or Ectos, then the value of stored material wealth in Ecto and Braces will depreciate.

At last we get to the crux of the argument: Mercs will make my stuff worth less.

What do your stacks of ectos and armbraces get you? Nothing but cosmetic changes for epeen.
Max armour can be bought in Kaineng for 1 platinum.
Max weapons drop from monsters.

The (insert ridiculous merc team here) may farm ectos quicker than a normal HH team, but what actual advantage do they gain in GW?

More money to buy party / alcohol? - Nothing but a cosmetic title.
Easier vanqing - Nothing but a cosmetic title.
Easier GWAMM - Nothing but a cosmetic title.

FWIW, I haven't tried the "make a PvP character / merc / delete character" thing, but if that does work, then that is outside of what I would consider the spirit of mercs to be: Mercs should only be available from PvE charaters.

Improvavel · Mar 23, 2011, 10:41 AM // 10:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dafad Dhu

The (insert ridiculous merc team here) may farm ectos quicker than a normal HH team, but what actual advantage do they gain in GW?

More money to buy party / alcohol? - Nothing but a cosmetic title.
Easier vanqing - Nothing but a cosmetic title.
Easier GWAMM - Nothing but a cosmetic title.

FWIW, I haven't tried the "make a PvP character / merc / delete character" thing, but if that does work, then that is outside of what I would consider the spirit of mercs to be: Mercs should only be available from PvE charaters.

Is HH hero/henchmen? Nobody does that anymore.

So the difference is you can have more of some profession - the advantage (in terms of raw speed) of that is debatable and while in some circumstances (I can think of Shadow Form tank/spike teams) it might exist, circumstances are bound to change.

The PvP character/merc/delete works.

But that wouldn't stop multiple merch heroes of the same profession - many people have storage mules. And leveling in Guild Wars is quite fast.

Or would stop the complains since you could still field one more of whatever profession.

Saint Scarlet · Mar 23, 2011, 12:25 PM // 12:25

@ Quru - I don't get where all this talk about us wanting free Merc's is coming from. I haven't seen one person asking for free Merc's.
We have seen a problem within the game where it has made things unbalanced (yes i know balance is a tricky thing and alot isn't already) and given people far more options to do things than others.
All anyone has said is it's seems to be wrong and against Anets policy on content. We have thought about this and offered solutions that we think are viable.
The only people to mention free Mercs seem to be the folks that have already bought them. Perhaps this might be down to the fact you wish you hadn't and are trying your hardest to stop any leveling of the playing field, which would make your bought advantages more "worth it"........ just a thought.

chessyang · Mar 23, 2011, 12:32 PM // 12:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Dr Pepper X

Where does it end?

Do people not see how the philosophy of GW has changed since many of the original staff have parted?

it will never end. At the 6th year i'm sure there going to release some sort of DLC or just content, then some sort of WoC outfit (you know Cantha/Faction style) and FoeFire (if they get that far).

I'm sure most of us see Anet has changed. going down 15+ pages it's starting to repeat. Plus, i don't recall, when they release the storage panels in the past, there was a tread like this. same burger just served differently.

So in the mean time i'll have my burger well done with the works! Like a FiveGuys burger! oh man might get one for lunch today!